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Autor/ica Poruka
 Naslov: Ukazivanja u Međugorju
PostPostano: pon nov 20, 2006 11:46 pm 
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Pridružen/a: čet nov 16, 2006 12:30 am
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Ne znam da li je o ovome već bila riječ, ali me zanima šta mislite o ovom fenomenu. Iako je prošlo više od 25 godina od prvog ukazanja "gospe" kako tu manifestaciju nazivaju vidioci, i ukazanja su se nastavila do dan danas samo što su rijeđa od prvih ukazanja kada su bila svaki dan. Danas vidioci doživljavaju ukazanja otprilike svakih dva mjeseca ili tako nešto. Zadnje što sam pročitao u novinama, Jutarnji list, je bilo zadnje javljanje "gospe" jednoj od vidjelica i kao "gospa" joj je prenjela nekakve tajne koje će se uskoro ostvariti. Kakva su vaša razmišljana o tome, odnosno cijelom fenomenu Međugorskih ukazanja koja traju već 25 godina. I kako komentirate kip gosope iz Međugorja, koja je u Italiji, i koja plače krvave suze.


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Pridružen/a: čet mar 30, 2006 11:32 pm
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Ukazanja Uu Medjugorju su po svemu sudeci jos jedan primjer manipulacije OPS 4D. Selim ovo na Manipulaciju.

U prilogu je diskusija sa jednog drugog foruma, kad stignem prevest cu na nas jezik:

Citat:
I just received a copy of the book "Celestial Secrets: The Hidden History of the Fatima Cover-up" and, after reading the preface and forward, I wanted to see if anybody else had read it or not, so I searched for "fatima" and found that someone had, indeed, started a thread on the subject, but no one else had read it and responded.

It's in the books forum, so you might want to check it out. I think it would be right up your alley! It's an academic work, and no matter how much you might think about a subject, it still gives the willies to see it in action. And here, I mean evidence of hyperdimensional contact and how it influences beliefs.

We have also recently been in contact with a jesuit-turned-ufologist by the name of Salvador Freixedo. He's in his 80s now, and is quite well known to the Spanish speaking world of "extra-mural research."

What was so amazing to us was that his views on UFOs are astonishingly similar to Cassiopaea - and - as a member of our Spanish group pointed out, the guy just arrived to those conclusions by simple observation and research! This member tells us:


Citat:
Someone posted a fragment of one of his books in the Sp group where he
even made the connection between Jewish sacrifices and cattle
mutilations (which Laura also makes) and suggests that "Yahweh" asked
for these in order to feed from energy! He also thinks there's an
hyperdimensional aspect and that this planet is basically a 'farm of
humans'.

After the Spanish group contacted him, I received a nice message from him and we shipped off a box of books to him.

Here's an article that summarizes his views:

Citat:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc870.htm

Reflections on the Current State of Ufology

Salvador Freixedo

original source | fair use notice

Summary: Summary of the UFO phenomenon by Salvador Freixedo,
Spanish-speaking ufology's foremost paranormal researcher and
theoretician.

- There are extra-human, intelligent (non-corporeal?) beings on our
planet.

- For those without prejudice, the increasingly greater presence of
UFOS in our skies and the mysterious and marvelous crop circles seen
in so many countries are proof of this.

- We must put aside being surprised at their incomprehensible behavior.

- The presentation of new cases contributes to a fuller understanding,
but it is of secondary importance. The phenomenon must today be
considered from a sociological and psychological standpoint, related
with the evolution of the human race.

- It is logical to lack a thorough understanding of them, since they
hail from another dimension or plane of existence (in the same way
that animals are only able to comprehend some of our actions).

- They have been on this world for millions of years, and have been
here before we appeared.

- There exists the impression that some of them are arriving from
beyond the planet.

- The reason they have not openly presented themselves is that they
prefer to keep us believing that we own this planet and act with
complete freedom. Along these lines, the reader shall discover other
reasons for their secrecy.

- As occurs with humans, there are some among these beings who are
evolved and beneficial to mankind, while there are other who are
malevolent and only want to use us or toy with us.

- They make use of us in different ways (just like humans make use of
animals in different ways) and we are unaware of being used.

- It would seem that they employ the subtle energy produced by our
brain and our psyche as a whole (emotions, fears, hatred, pain, joy).

- It would seem that the presence of malevolent ones is felt with
greater strength than that of the good ones. The latter appear to obey
some cosmic law which consists of non-interference. The former do not
abide by this law and their presence among us is much greater and
noticeable.

- It is a great mistake to believe that since they are more
technically advanced than we (to judge by the devices they use to move
through our atmosphere) that they are also ethically evolved. Their
actions tell us that this is not the case, although it may be thet
their ethics are different from our own.

- Their means of traveling the Cosmos transcends our knowledge and the
laws of physics, as noted by great physicists and mathematicians
(i.e., Fred Hoyle and Perkins), and as the aliens themselves have said
on many occasions. The "dogma" of nothing being able to exceed the
speed of light is false, as accepted by experimental physicists.

- These superhuman intelligences created the different races of Man
throughout the millennia using apes as stock (Curiously, DNA tests
have shown that none of the current human races has any connection to
the Neanderthal man). To judge by abundant fossil remains, our planet
has been the home of many different human races (some of them giants)
who have existed and vanished over the course of many millions of
years, contrary to the beliefs stated by archaeologists and
paleontologists.

- The intelligent non-human creatures among us are very diverse and
have diverse origins. While some appear to hail from physical worlds
similar to our own, others appear to come from other dimensions or
planes of existence which are hard to locate in a physical realm, and
very hard to envision in our minds, which are locked in a
three-dimensional world. Nonetheless, these beings, while in our
world, act according to our physical laws.

- Their purposes are also different and we are aware of rivalries and
struggles among them.

- Some of these beings have the capacity to adopt completely human
shapes, which enable them to live with us without being detected.

- Human religions have been invented by these beings as a strategy to
control our minds. To implement them throughout the millennia, they
have made use of humans who have been trained in a special way (Of
course, I'm referring to the founders of all the great religions).

- All religions serve a specific purpose of the non-humans, although
humans do not exactly know what this purpose may be. It probably has
to do with the mental, emotional and social climate generated by each
religion in the long run.

- The authentic miracles which come about in all religions are
directly or indirectly the work of these beings and are aimed at
binding the minds of the faithful.

- These non-human intelligences shave the capacity to influence the
human mind at will. They normally do not do so individually, but have
done it on a collective scale, influencing the course of human
history. To do this, they have availed themselves of the leaders of
many nations, who have unconsciously followed their indications. In
many cases, these beings (often taken for gods) indicated their will
through dreams, apparitions, inspirations or by using soothsayers and
diviners who were consulted by kings and leaders.

- However, there is also the direct and individual influence of these
beings on humans. In ufology, these individuals are known as
"contactees". There are hundreds of thousands of them in all
continents and social levels, although the majority of them keep it
secret out of a fear of being considered insane. Some--the
minority--have benefitted from contact. However, most of them have
been negatively affected and their minds have been left disarrayed and
confused. The fact is that the majority of these beings have a
tendency to lie and toy with the contactee. We are to them what
animals are to us: we love or hate animals, we can benefit them or
hunt them down, but in the end, we always make use of them.

- Contact may be purely mental (as the contactee hears a voice within
his head) or visual (apparently physical), as the contactee sees the
object or the person communicating with him.

- The content of the message received by the contactee terms to be
eschatological or cosmogonical in nature, heralding major changes and
catastrophes due to the abuses we are inflicting upon the planet, or
regarding the history of the Earth and the solar system. The being may
present itself as a deity or higher being who urges the contactee to
disclose the news and converts the site into a place of pilgrimage or
worship where the masses may gather. These messages tend to combine
some truths with many untruths.

- These beings, much like their vehicles, are normally invisible to
the human eye, although they may become visible at will. On many
occasions only small groups of people have seen them, but photo
cameras, radar and underwater sonar have captured them an infinite
number of times. In recent years there have been waves of UFOs seen by
thousands of people (for example, in Mexico, Peru, Chile and Belgium)
and in the 1950's, they were seen for an entire week over the U.S.
Capitol. There are thousands of photographs and videos of these objects.

- The world's powers are not only in contact with one group or another
of these beings, but have been collaborating with them for some fifty
years on largely military projects involving a mechanical, psychic and
biological technology completely unknown to the official scientific
community. Some of these technologies were deployed during the Gulf War.

- The Great Powers deny such contact exists and have expended huge
sums of money to keep humankind from knowing this. In their zeal to
achieve this, they have bypassed constitutions and legal codes. But
there is an infinity of proof to the contrary. The mass media has been
bought off, deceived or gagged to keep the truth from being known. One
of the most common ways to keep the masses from finding this out is to
ridicule researchers, making them seem insane or anti-scientific, but
on many occasions they have gone as far as to kill scientists and
important persons who might divulge the truth.

- The SETI project, as well as Project Blue Book, the Condon,
Robertson, and Sturrock Reports, and various Air Force statements are
deceits perpetrated by the U.S. authorities to make people believe
that serious study is being conducted on the subject.

- At this time, ufology's main task should be try to find to what
extent the secret masters of the planet (among which the military is
prevalent and not necessarily those who appear in the newspapers) are
conniving with these alien intelligences and what are their ultimate aims.

- These great world leaders are contactee in their own way, and it is
likely that they are being deceived like the majority of normal
contactee. In this case, humanity is being led to the edge of a precipice.

- To judge by the enormous environmental deterioration (which has
become a manifest change in the world's climate) and the state of
social, mental and spiritual agitation throughout the planet, one
cannot help but believe that we are being led to global catastrophe.

- There is the impression that ideologies, customs, technologies,
amusements and economic systems which are suicidal to humanity are
being imposed on us through the mass media, mainly television. World
leaders, who are largely dishonest, corrupt and addicted to power, are
blind to the serious problems facing humanity and are clumsily and
unconsciously following the orders of something that wants to destroy
humanity or enslave it.

- The majority of ufologists are upset that the great powers will not
admit to the presence of these beings among us, while others believe
that the time is approaching when they will have no choice but to make
such an admission. But I wonder: when they speak to us, will they tell
us the whole truth? And what will we do when they say it? Will we then
become concerned over what the intentions of these cosmic beings or
visitors may be?

- If they are among us, if they are more intelligent than us, and if
they have spent so much time among us, it is only logical to believe
that we have been manipulated and still manipulate us in some way,
just as more evolved humans have manipulated and used less-evolved
cultures in a thousand ways). Therefore, wouldn't it be convenient to
start to find out what their intentions are, to channel them to our
benefit or to defend against them should they prove harmful? I think
that this is more important than presenting new cases, remain startled
by their erratic behavior or express our discontent at officialdom's
silence.

- If humanity finally becomes aware that it has been deceived and used
for millennia, would this not be a great piece of news to stir us up
and make us forsake false values we have hitherto considered basic or
sacred (nations, races, religions, languages) but which in the long
run have only promotes war, injustice and divisions, and began to
change the horrors of human history into a more rational and just one?
Have these "sacred values" been a ploy by these intelligences to keep
us distracted and not realizing that we are slaves?

What is the ultimate purpose of these non-human intelligences?
Discovering it should be ufology's avowed task. Are they invading us
in some way, although we are unaware of it?

[Editor's note: It is always an honor and a pleasure to feature the
words of Salvador Freixedo in the pages of INEXPLICATA. Freixedo,
Spanish-speaking ufology's foremost paranormal researcher and
theoretician, author of Israel Pueblo Contacto and Defendamonos de los
Dioses, has summarized his thoughts on the UFO phenomenon and shares
them with our readers.]

_________________
" Vrlo cesto Vitez je porazen jer je sluzio Djavolu svim svojim srcem dok je iskreno ali pogresno vjerovao da sluzi Kristu."
(Mouravijeff- Gnosis)


http://knightofthestorms.blogspot.com/


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PostPostano: uto nov 21, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Pridružen/a: čet mar 30, 2006 11:32 pm
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Citat (laura):

Od nedavno smo u kontaktu sa bivsim jezuitom a sada ufologom pod imenom Salvador Frixiedo. On je sada u svojim 80-tim i prilicno je poznat medju altrenativnim istrazivacima na spanjolskom govornom podrucju.
Ono sto me je najvise iznenadilo jest da su njegovi pogledi na UFO-e nevjerovatno slicni onim ponudjenim od CS. Kao sto je jedan clan nase spanjolske grupe primjetio , Frixied je dosao do ovih zakljucaka jednostavnom observacijom i istrazivanjem. Ovaj clan nam kaze:

"Frixiedo je cak povezao obicaj drevnih zrtvovanja i mutilacije stoke danasnjih dana i sugerira da one "Yahve-u " sluze da napuni svoje energetske rezerve. Takodjer vjeruje u hiperdimenzionalne aspekte i smatra da je ovaj planet manje vise farma za uzgoj ljudi"


nakon sto ga je spanjolska grupa kontaktirala od njega smo primili prijatnu poruku i poslali mu kutiju punu knjiga
Kraj citata


kao sto vidimo dolazi do interesantne situacije u kojoj ozbiljni istrazivaci sa razlicitih govornih podrucja koji nemaju nikakvih saznanja ne o uzjamnim zakljucima nego uopce o postojanju onog drugog
dolaze do gotovo identicnih zakljucaka.

_________________
" Vrlo cesto Vitez je porazen jer je sluzio Djavolu svim svojim srcem dok je iskreno ali pogresno vjerovao da sluzi Kristu."
(Mouravijeff- Gnosis)


http://knightofthestorms.blogspot.com/


Zadnja izmjena: Vitez od Nevera; uto nov 21, 2006 4:35 pm; ukupno mijenjano 1 put/a.

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PostPostano: uto nov 21, 2006 3:02 pm 
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Pridružen/a: čet mar 30, 2006 11:32 pm
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nastavit ce se

_________________
" Vrlo cesto Vitez je porazen jer je sluzio Djavolu svim svojim srcem dok je iskreno ali pogresno vjerovao da sluzi Kristu."
(Mouravijeff- Gnosis)


http://knightofthestorms.blogspot.com/


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PostPostano: uto nov 21, 2006 8:00 pm 
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Pridružen/a: čet dec 29, 2005 1:26 am
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Citat:
kao sto vidimo dolazi do interesantne situacije u kojoj ozbiljni istrazivaci sa razlicitih govornih podrucja koji nemaju nikakvih saznanja ne o uzjamnim zakljucima nego uopce o postojanju onog drugog
dolaze do gotovo identicnih zakljucaka.


Treba znati da nije vazno na kojoj geografskoj tocki na ovoj planeti se netko nalazi da bi ga stigla istina ili slicna laz.
Ako netko djeluje iz druge dimenzije , moze biti i obicna misaona forma koja trazi svoju manifestaciju ovdje kroz nekoga, pa se ta misaona forma moze zakaciti za bilo koga na bilo kom mjestu na planeti ili pak vise njih geografski udaljenih.
Nekako izgleda da nazalost ne mozemo potvrditi nesto kao tocno , ako su dvije osobe u tocki A i tocki B dosle do istoga a tocka A i B su jako daleko i nisu stupile u uzajamni kontakt.
Naravno ne mozemo ni iskljuciti.
Tako i u Medjugorju broje one kojima se ukazala, da ne bi bio samo jedan , nego se kao skuplja vise dokaza, pa onda takvih ukazanja ima i na drugim mjestima na planeti i onda odredjena grupa to obradi i plasira kao dokaz.
To je kao neka metoda "svjedoka" da se potvrdi nesto ali svjedok ne znaci i uvijek JESTE.
Velika grupa ljudi se moze obmanjivati jednom te istom stvari na potpuno razlicitim mjestima jer dimenzija iz koje se obmanjuje ne podlijezi zakonima i vremena kojima mi podlijezemo ili barem kako mi vidimo vrijeme i prostor.
Ovo je samo onako za analiticko razmisljanje , nekad i to bude svrsishodno.
Inace , kad je u pitanju Medjugorje i slicna mjesta i to da neki ljudi osjecaju tamo cudnu energiju, mir ...itd...moze da bude samo od energije ljudi koji su to dolazili mahom sa nadom u neku pomoc i ozdravljenje , vjeru, pa se nevidljivo formira sila od svih tih energija koju poslije neko moze osjecati kao pozitivnu ili sa svojom vjerom podstaci da ozdravi od necega , a to ne znaci da se tamo i nesto cudno desava.
Isto kao sto neki ljudi osjecaju losu energiju na mjestima gdje su se desile neke lose stvari nekad davno .
Jedna te ista stvar moze posluziti i za dobro i za lose , sve ovisi kako se iskoristi i sa kojom namjerom.


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PostPostano: uto nov 21, 2006 9:01 pm 
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Pridružen/a: čet nov 16, 2006 12:30 am
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Previše općenito. Konkretno što se desilo u Međugorju prije 25 godina? Šta su djeca vidjela? Koje su to tajne koja je gospa prenjela? Bez ljutnje, ali ovo su po meni prazne priče. Želim znati


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Pridružen/a: pet dec 02, 2005 11:54 pm
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A možda je bila holografska projekcija od strane određenih bića koja su na mnogo višem razvojnom stepenu od nas, tako da jadne i naivne ljude nije teško uvjeriti da je to upravo ono što vide a uzmimo još u obzir i veoma važan finansijski faktor koji ta "pojava" ostvaruje u tih zadnjih 25 godina.
Treba sve mogućnosti uzeti u obzir a ne samo ono što nam se stalno potura pod nos. :wink:

Što se tiče te specifične energije o kojoj svi govore lično mi se sviđa ovo objašnjenje koje je Sophia gore iznijela.


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PostPostano: uto nov 21, 2006 11:54 pm 
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Pridružen/a: pet dec 03, 2004 6:40 pm
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Lokacija: 3rd density Earth, Zagreb
Citat:
Konkretno što se desilo u Međugorju prije 25 godina?


Iluzija.



:mrgreen: :wink:


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PostPostano: sri nov 22, 2006 12:13 am 
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Pridružen/a: čet mar 30, 2006 11:32 pm
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holografska projekcija :wink:

sofija nisi razumjela sto sam htio reci

zamisli da postoji osoba A i osoba B. Ozoba A nalazi se u Namibijskoj pustinji a osoba B na Kamcatki.
Ove osobe nisu u kontaktu i ne znaju jedna za drugu medjutim proucavaju isti fenomen iz svijeta koji ih okruzuje slicnim kritickim metodama.
Na kraju obje osobe dodju do identicnog zakljucka, to nam govori da je taj zakljucak vrlo vjerovatno blizu istini

_________________
" Vrlo cesto Vitez je porazen jer je sluzio Djavolu svim svojim srcem dok je iskreno ali pogresno vjerovao da sluzi Kristu."
(Mouravijeff- Gnosis)


http://knightofthestorms.blogspot.com/


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Pridružen/a: uto okt 04, 2005 10:47 am
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Realno gledajuci Medjugordje trebamo biti svjesni efekata ljudkog pamcenja i percepcije..

Kontekstualne varijable jako utjecu na vidjenje necega sto nema.. Npr. ljudi cesce vise duha kauboja u saloonu, osjete miris ruze u crvenoj sobi i sl. U jednom kvalitativnom istrazivanju u engleskoj (znaci, analiza slucajeva) 836 od 843 slučajeva imalo je bar jednu takvu kontekstalnu varijablu.

Znaci, ljudi dolaze na mjesto koje povezuju s gospom i necim takvim.

Dalje.. Ocekivanje jako utjece. Kada ljudi usmjeravaju paznju na nesto onda zamjecuju to na sto usmjeravaju paznju, kao i bolje pamte takve sitnice. Naravno, i cesce vide onoga cega nema. Radjen je i eksperiment, grupa studenata je isla obici staro napusteno kazaliste. Polovici je receno da je kazaliste opsjednuto, a polovici nista, kasnije su upitani da opisu ako su vidjeli nesto paranormalno i prva grupa je vidjela i opisala puno vise toga.

Tu je i pamcenje vazno, jer je podlozno rekonstrukciji i kako se mi dosjecamo i razmisljamo ono se jako mijenja. Opcenito nam je pamcenje jaako neobjektivno.

....itd.

Tako da sam dosta skeptican prema svim tim vidjenjima i dozivljajima koje ljudi imaju.


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Pridružen/a: sri jun 08, 2005 3:56 pm
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Sacreus, kod Međugorja je razlika što prije ukazanja to mjesto uopće nije bilo nikakvo svetište nego obično selo sa crkvom, tako da taj efekt o kojem pričaš kod ove djece sigurno nije bio prisutan.


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Pridružen/a: ned apr 16, 2006 7:09 pm
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wow,wow polako polako idemo u shirinu ! To sto je bilo u medjugoriju jeste samo iskoristavanje naivnih mjestana tog grada a kasnije i chitave hercegovine pa onda i svijeta... danas je medjugorije kao neki mini las vegas, gdje se stvorila citava mala armija ljudi koji iskoristavaju to " ukazanje" . Ja to vidim sve kao jedan dobar marketinski trik...

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Pridružen/a: uto okt 04, 2005 10:47 am
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MOONLIGHT je napisao/la:
Sacreus, kod Međugorja je razlika što prije ukazanja to mjesto uopće nije bilo nikakvo svetište nego obično selo sa crkvom, tako da taj efekt o kojem pričaš kod ove djece sigurno nije bio prisutan.


Pricao sam o ljudima koji dolaze i tamo nesto dozivljavaju..

A djeca.. ionizacija zraka, eketro/geo/manetska zracenja, atmosferske promjene... mogu utjecati na dozivljaj paranormanih iskustava.. a mozda su i imala napad epilepsije.. :D postoji niz mogucnosti za sagledati s "racionalne" strane..

No, mogucnost da je nesto stvarno bilo ne odbacujem..


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PostPostano: ned nov 26, 2006 12:18 am 
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Pridružen/a: pet dec 03, 2004 6:40 pm
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Da, pa mogao je i zbilja neki entitet iz viših denziteta "prikazati" se... radi ( svojih ) određenih razloga... pa šta?

Mislim da je to isto važno kao i pitanje tu negdje na forumu... Jel postojao Mickey Mouse...

Ne vidim svrhu dokazivanja, ili ne... pa već smo svi svjesni da postoje razni entiteti iz viših nivoa svijesti i oni mogu raditi razna "prikazanja", pojave i projekcije u ovaom našem, broju 3.

Bitnije je pitanje: ZAŠTO se "pojavljuju"!!!

:mrgreen: :wink:


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PostPostano: ned nov 26, 2006 12:13 pm 
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Pridružen/a: uto okt 04, 2005 10:47 am
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Da, i po meni je bitnije pitanje zasto.. a moji "skepticni" komentari su bili cisto kao osvrt da treba gledati skepticno, da bi se ozbiljno razmisljalo o necemu..

Osim velikog broj namjernih prevara, ljudi imaju i tendenciju vidjeti/cuti ono sto zele (i to su istrazivnja pokazala, da ljudi koji dolaze iz kultura koje podupiru takve tsvari, cesce imaju paranormalna iskustva).. a po meni to ometa i usporava put do ogovora na Zasto, sto Jack kaze..


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Pridružen/a: sri dec 06, 2006 5:12 pm
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Marketinški trik.


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Pridružen/a: sri dec 21, 2005 2:57 pm
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Hehe, kad smo već lepo razradili sve teorije, fali još jedna...
Možda se dječici zaista ukazala Marija, hehe...


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Pridružen/a: čet dec 14, 2006 8:04 pm
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Mozda se djecici zaista ukazala Marija, hehe...

Vec onako, etimoloski, "ukazati" se moze samo prikaza, nesto stvarno se ne "ukazuje", ono se pokazuje...
Ne sumnjam da im se ukazala i da su je vidjeli...Samo sumnjam da je ona zaista bila tamo :mrgreen:

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Pridružen/a: pet mar 02, 2007 4:58 pm
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a cuj..mislim da je mozda i suludo raspravljat o ovome..sve dok ljudi idu moliti dole..dok se skuplja velika kolicina pozitivne energije i pozitivnih misli..mislim da nema smisla osudjivati takva mjesta..jer zaboga..medjugorje je oaza u svijetu zla,mrznja,prevara,manipulacije..kako je papa Ivan Pavao drugi rekao jednom prilikom kad su ga pitali o medjugoru..."pusti narod..neka ide..neka se moli.." to i ja kazem..a sad sto je stvarno bilo..mozemo samo nagadjati ili vjerovati po svom osobonom svjetonazoru... :wink:


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Pridružen/a: čet dec 14, 2006 8:04 pm
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Suludo je raspravljati? Dobro, zasto se je onda netko mucio otvoriti ovaj topic nego da bi oni koji to zele mogli o tome raspraviti? Ti ako ne zelis, nemoj, ali samim postom vec si se uvukao u raspravu...
I sta sad, mi svi trebamo zasutit jer ti koji neces raspravljati mases Papinim citatima?


Ovdje smo oni koji zele baciti pogled iz druge perspektive na stvarnost koja nas okruzuje. Zelimo razmijeniti misljenja.
Ako nam se zelis prikljuciti, koristi svoje vlastite argumente, ne Papine ili bilo cije druge. Vjerovanja isto ostavljamo po strani. Mi to ovdje nastojimo koliko je moguce. Nismo sveznajuci jer to nije nitko. Mnostvo stvari ne znamo i nastojimo otkriti.

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