The Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs is the media epithet for the killers responsible for a string of murders in Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine in June and July 2007. The case gained additional notoriety due to the fact that the killers made video recordings of some of the murders, with one of the videos leaking to the Internet (poznat kao 3 guys 1 hammer). Two 19-year-old locals, Viktor Sayenko and Igor Suprunyuck, were arrested and charged with 21 murders.


A third co-conspirator, Alexander Hanzha, was charged with two armed robberies that took place before the murder spree. On February 11, 2009, all three defendants were found guilty. Suprunyuck and Sayenko were sentenced to life imprisonment, while Hanzha received nine years in prison. The lawyers for Suprunyuck and Sayenko launched an appeal, which was dismissed by the Supreme Court of Ukraine in November 2009.

Murders

The first two murders took place late at night on June 25, 2007. The first victim was a 33-year-old local woman named Ekaterina Ilchenko, who was walking home after having tea at her female friend's apartment. According to Sayenko's confession, he and Suprunyuck were "out for a walk". Suprunyuck had a hammer. As Ilchenko walked past, Suprunyuck "spun around" and struck her in the side of the head. Ilchenko's body was found by her mother at 5 AM.


Within an hour of the first murder, the two men attacked their next victim, Roman Tatarevich. He was sleeping on a bench a short walk away from the first murder scene. Tatarevich's head was smashed with blunt objects numerous times, rendering him unrecognizable. The bench he was discovered on was located across the street from the local Public Prosecutor's office.


On July 1, two more victims, Evgeniya Grischenko and Nikolai Serchuk, were found murdered in the nearby town of Novomoskovsk


On the night of July 6, three more people were murdered in Dnepropetrovsk. The first was Egor Nechvoloda, a recently discharged army recruit, who was bludgeoned while walking home from a night club. His mother found the body in the morning by their apartment building on Bohdan Khmelnytsky Street. Elena Shram, a 28-year-old night guard, was then murdered around the corner on Kosiora Street. According to Sayenko's taped confession, as Shram walked towards them, Suprunyuck struck her with the hammer he had been hiding under his shirt and struck her several more times after she fell down. She had been carrying a bag filled with clothes. The men picked up the bag, used the clothes to clean the hammer, and threw the bag out. Later the same night, the men murdered a woman named Valentina Hanzha (no apparent relation to co-defendant Alexander Hanzha), a mother of three married to a disabled husband.


The next day, July 7, two 14-year-old boys from Podgorodnoye, a nearby village, were attacked in broad daylight as they went fishing. One of the two friends, Andrei Sidyuck, was killed, but the other, Vadim Lyakhov, managed to escape.


On July 12, a 48-year-old man named Sergei Yatzenko, disabled by a recent bout with cancer, went missing while riding his Dnepr motorcycle. His body was found four days later, with signs of a savage attack clearly visible even after four days in the summer heat.

Thirteen more murders followed, often with multiple bodies found in the same day. In addition to the earlier sprees, two victims were found every day from July 14 through 16. Victims were seemingly selected at random. Many were vulnerable to attack, including women, children, elderly, vagrants, or people under the influence of alcohol.


Most of the victims were killed using blunt objects, including hammers and steel construction bars. Blows were often directed at the victims' faces, leaving them unrecognizable. Many victims were also mutilated and tortured, and some had their eyes gouged out while they were still alive. One of the victims was a pregnant woman, whose fetus was cut out of her womb. No sexual assaults on any victims were reported.

Some of the victims were also robbed of their cell phones and other valuables, with their possessions pawned to a large network of second-hand shops in the area. However, most victims had their possessions intact.

The murders spanned a large geographical area. In addition to the city of Dnepropetrovsk itself, many took place in the outlying areas of the Dnepropetrovsk Oblast.
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Arrest and trial

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ec_1228735825 < video

One of the suspects being arrested:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... Arrest.jpg

The three suspects were arrested on July 23, 2007. Suprunyuck attempted to sell a mobile phone stolen from one of the victims in a local pawn shop, asking for 150 hryvnia (about US $20). When the phone was turned on to show that it worked, its location was traced by law enforcement agents. Suprunyuck and Sayenko were arrested near the cash register of the shop.[18][13] [9] Hanzha was arrested at home, reportedly managing to flush other stolen mobile phones down the toilet. The phones were recovered, but all information on them was lost.

The three men were charged with involvement in 29 separate incidents, including 21 murders and 8 more attacks where the victims survived. Suprunyuck was charged with 27 of the cases, including 21 counts of capital murder, 8 armed robberies, and 1 count of animal cruelty. Sayenko was charged with 25 instances, including 18 murders, 5 robberies and 1 count of animal cruelty. Hanzha was charged with two counts of armed robbery, stemming from a March 1, 2007 incident in Dniprodzerzhynsk.

All three confessed quickly, although Suprunyuck later withdrew his confession. Their trial began in June 2008. Suprunyuck pleaded not guilty, while the other two suspects pleaded guilty to all charges. Viktor Chevguz, Suprunyuck's original defense lawyer, dropped out of the case after reportedly being disappointed at failing to have a plea of insanity for his client accepted. Lawyers for the victims' families argued that the level of care taken by the killers during their crime spree meant that they were fully aware of their actions.

Prosecution evidence included bloodstains on the suspects' clothing and video recordings of the murders. The defense denied that the people in the videos were the suspects, claiming serious problems with the investigation, including at least 10 more murders covered up by the prosecution, supposed cover-ups of additional arrests of people with powerful connections who were released without being charged, even naming some of the additional people supposedly involved with the murders. The case was heard by a panel of judges chaired by Judge Ivan Senchenko. The prosecution asked for life imprisonment for Sayenko and Suprunyuck, and 15 years of hard labor for Hanzha. Ukraine has no capital punishment.
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Suspects
The three suspects in court.

The three suspects were lifelong friends who attended school together.

According to interviews with the suspects' families, Sayenko and Hanzha were friends from an early age. Suprunyuck moved to the area later, and the three became friends in the third grade. The two other boys had been good students before making friends with Suprunyuck, when their grades began to slip. One of their teachers reported that Suprunyuck was shy and withdrawn, but always picking fights and getting into trouble.

By the fifth grade, the boys had their first brush with the law when they were caught throwing rocks at passing trains.

By the eighth grade the three suspects had found some more common ground. "Me and Igor [Suprunyuck ] were both afraid of heights, and we were afraid we'd be beaten up by bullies", Sayenko stated during questioning. Suprunyuck went looking for advice on getting rid of their fears, which led the two boys to stand on a balcony of their 14th floor apartment for hours, hanging over the railing. This reportedly had a positive effect on their fear of heights. Hanzha was reportedly the most squeamish of the three. He had blood phobia, and would even refuse to give a bath to his kitten, afraid he might scald it. Suprunyuck suggested tackling the fears by torturing stray dogs. The boys would capture dogs in a wooded area near their house, hang them from trees, disembowel them, and take pictures standing next to the corpses. Prosecution evidence included many of these photos taken by the underage suspects. Some photos show the boys drawing swastikas and other symbols with animal blood, and giving the Hitler salute. In one infamous photo, Suprunyuck poses next to a dead dog sporting a "Hitler moustache" painted with a dead dog's blood. Suprunyuck was born on April 20, the same day as Adolf Hitler, and often made references to the fact.

A long video showing the three torturing a white kitten was shown in court. It takes place in their garage. The suspects fashion a cross out of two wooden boards and nail the kitten to it, then shoot at it with two pistols, placing foam and glue in its mouth in order to muffle the kitten's screams.

When the boys were 17, Suprunyuck beat up a local boy and stole his bike, which he then sold to Sayenko. Both were arrested, but did not go to jail due to their age.

After high school, Hanzha drifted between odd jobs, which included a pastry chef and a construction worker. At the time of the arrest he had been unemployed for some time. Sayenko went to a metallurgy institute part-time and worked as a security guard.Suprunyuck remained officially unemployed, but made a living driving his green Daewoo Lanos as an unlicensed taxi. The car was reportedly a birthday gift from his parents.

Some months before the murder spree began, Suprunyuck - with the help of Sayenko and Hanzha - began picking up passengers and robbing them. A green Daewoo with a taxicab's checkerboard marking was often described as the vehicle used in the murders. According to the suspects' confessions, some of the murder victims were picked up as passengers in Suprunyuck's unlicensed cab. Hanzha reportedly participated in a single incident where two men were robbed, and subsequently declined to take part in any further attacks.

Local media reported that the suspects had wealthy influential parents with ties to local law enforcement. Vladimir Suprunyuck, Igor Suprunyuck's father, in his interview to Segodnya stated that he had been employed at Yuzhmash as a test pilot, often flying with Leonid Kuchma, the future president of Ukraine, and continuing to serve as his personal pilot on domestic flights after Kuchma's rise to power. Local authorities, including deputy interior minister Nikolay Kupyanskiy, initially referred to the supposed influence of the suspects' families, but later denied the assessment, claiming that all three suspects came from poor families. However, Viktor Sayenko was represented in court by his father Igor Sayenko, a lawyer.


Motive

The prosecution did not establish a specific motive behind the killings. Local media reported that the killers had a plan to get rich from the murder videos that they recorded. One of the suspects' girlfriends reported that they were planning to make forty videos of separate murders. This was corroborated by the suspects' former classmate, who claimed that he often heard Suprunyuck was in contact with an unknown "rich foreign website operator" who ordered forty snuff videos, and would pay a large sum of money once they were made.Regional security chief Ivan Stupak rejected the claim that the murders had been committed to make Internet snuff videos, saying that no evidence had come to light during the investigation that supported the claim.[31] Detective Bogdan Vlasenko stated: "We think they were doing it as a hobby, to have a collection of memories when they get old." Deputy interior minister Nikolay Kupyanskiy commented "For these young men, murder was like entertainment or hunting."

At the trial, it emerged that Suprunyuck had collected newspaper cuttings about the case. Some of the photographs of the crimes had captions added, including "The weak must die. The strongest will conquer."


Defense claims

Igor Sayenko, Viktor Sayenko's father and lawyer:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... ayenko.jpg

The legal team defending the suspects consisted of three lawyers, one assigned to each
suspect. All three lawyers were originally court-appointed, but after the initial hearings Viktor Sayenko requested to be represented by his father instead of his previous lawyer, who had apparently graduated from law school only two months earlier. The request was granted, leading to a significant delay in the proceedings as Sayenko's father familiarized himself with multiple volumes of evidence. Igor Sayenko became the most prominent figure on the defense side, giving numerous interviews and taking a leading role in the court proceedings.

Hanzha's attorneys based their defense on the fact that he never participated in the murder spree, and was involved only with a single incident four months before the spree began, in which two men were robbed in the nearby town of Dniprodzerzhynsk. Hanzha fully admitted his guilt, hoping for leniency in sentencing.

The defense strategy for the other two suspects was to attack the prosecution on a wide front. Multiple investigators were called to the stand, including the leader of the arrest team and the lead investigator in the case. The defense claimed illegal searches, improperly kept records, and problems during questioning. Igor Sayenko raised questions about the videotape of the searches conducted in the suspects' apartments. According to Sayenko, the tape constantly stops and restarts, showing the evidence obtained only after being picked up by investigators, but never the actual moment of discovery. The legal team also denied that the people shown in the murder videos were the suspects, claiming that they are recognized instantly as different individuals.

In an interview with Komsomolskaya Pravda, a major Russian-language newspaper, Igor Sayenko claimed that a fourth suspect named Danila Kozlov was initially charged with the murders. Tatiana Shram, a sister of victim Elena Shram, also stated in an interview that she saw Kozlov's name mentioned in court documents, and that Kozlov was reportedly aware of the murders, and was with the suspects just before her sister was murdered. Shram further stated that the investigators told her that Kozlov remains free because he "did not murder anyone", and that when her attorney attempted to bring up the matter in court, the judge "asked him to sit down".

Igor Sayenko continued to speculate on the influence of the families of the "real killers", claiming that he conducted interviews with an escaped victim who wanted his identity kept secret out of fear for his life. This unnamed victim claimed that he identified the suspects in his attack, and that two other men were identified and arrested. The suspects were supposedly released an hour later due to pressure from their families, and two of the investigators were fired. Sayenko stated in court that four days before the three suspects were arrested, police caught two men and a woman in the act of committing one of the murders. The suspects attacked the police officers but were arrested and were booked under the names of Sayenko and Suprunyuck, but they were not the men currently on trial. "But now these details are being covered up," Sayenko said in court. "The investigators claim that this did not happen. But there are people, officers in the Militsiya, who on July 19, 2007 received reports that those three were arrested. [...]But, alas, it turned out that the persons arrested had powerful parents. So the information was quickly suppressed, and instead my son and two of his friends were railroaded. I also believe that the girl arrested on that day has since left the country and is now in Germany."

The defense team also claimed that the prosecution was withholding from the court information that exonerated their clients. Igor Sayenko claimed that the police interviewed witnesses and recovered evidence from two additional murders. The suspects had a strong alibi for the time of these murders, and so all information on these crimes was removed from the case.

Viktor Sayenko's defense claimed that he had a "psychological dependence" on Igor Suprunyuck, whom they called the ringleader. They claimed that Suprunyuck repeatedly threatened Sayenko, and that Sayenko feared for his life. Sayenko testified in court, saying that he had been in constant fear of Suprunyuck since 7th grade.

The strategy of the defense team received some support from the victims' families, who were reportedly dissatisfied with the slow-moving legal process as well as an alleged cover-up by the investigators. Some of the victims' relatives stated to the media that they planned to set up an independent organization to monitor the court proceedings. The authorities in Ukraine strongly denied that a fourth person was involved in the killings who could still be at large, and said that rumors of similar crimes taking place since the arrest of the three suspects are unfounded.
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Murder videos and photographs
Prosecution evidence: Sayenko and Suprunyuck with a dead cat.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... hammer.jpg

The suspects' cell phones and personal computers contained multiple video recordings of the murders taking place. One full video was leaked to the Internet, showing the murder of 48-year-old Sergei Yatzenko. He is seen laying on his back in a wooded area, and is struck repeatedly in the face with a hammer held inside a plastic bag. One of the attackers pokes out Yatzenko's eyes, and stabs him in the abdomen with a screwdriver. Yatzenko is then struck with the hammer in order to ensure that he is dead. The attack lasts over four minutes, during which the victim lapses in and out of consciousness. One of the murderers can be seen smiling towards the camera during the video. The murderers walk back to their car, showing that the crime took place only a few feet away from the side of a road, next to their parked car. They discuss the murder calmly, expressing mild amazement that the victim was still breathing after a screwdriver was plunged into his exposed brain. The suspects then wash their hands and the hammer with a water bottle, and begin to laugh. Only two suspects appear to be present in the video, with one always behind the camera.

The suspects were also found in possession of multiple photographs showing them attending funerals of the victims. They can be seen smiling and "flipping off" the coffins and gravestones. Evidence of animal abuse was also shown in court, with the suspects posing alongside mutilated animal corpses.

The photographic and video evidence was shown in court on October 29, 2008, as part of a larger presentation of over 300 photographs and two videos. The defense objected to the presentation, claiming that the evidence was obtained illegally, and that the subjects shown in the video and the photographs were digitally altered to resemble the suspects. When Suprunyuck and Sayenko were asked if they recognized the people in the photographs, they replied that they did not. Judge Ivan Senchenko responded by stating "You are not blind." Valery Voronyuck, an expert on film and video editing, testified to the court that in his view the video material had not been faked or altered in any way. The court rejected all the objections raised by the defense, and accepted the prosecution's argument that the material was genuine, and showed the suspects in the act of murdering their victims.

The victim in the video
Sergei Yatzenko's widow Lyudmila holds his photograph.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... tzenko.jpg

The man whose brutal murder is recorded in the leaked video was identified as Sergei Yatzenko from the village of Taromskoye. His murder took place on July 12, 2007, and his body was found on July 16.

Yatzenko was 48 years old. He had recently been forced into retirement due to a cancer tumor in his throat. The treatment left him unable to speak for some time, but Yatzenko was unhappy with being unable to work and continued to find odd jobs around the village. He took on small construction projects, fixed cars, weaved baskets, and cooked for his family. He was beginning to regain his voice by the time of the murder. Yatzenko was married and had two sons and one grandchild. He also had a disabled mother whom he looked after.

Yatzenko had another brush with death sixteen years earlier. While working at a farm, he lost control of his tractor and rolled downhill into a river. Instead of jumping out, he stayed in the cabin trying to save his vehicle, and became pinned underwater. By the time he was freed, Yatzenko was clinically dead, but was resuscitated. Doctors called his survival "one in a thousand".

At around 2:30 PM on the day of the murder, he called his wife to let her know he was riding his old Dnepr motorcycle to see his grandchild. He never arrived at his son's house, and his cell phone was turned off by 6 PM. His wife Lyudmila called a friend and walked around the village, afraid that her husband might have fallen ill or had a motorcycle accident. They were unable to locate any signs of him. They were also unable to file a missing person's report, since in the Ukraine a person cannot be declared missing until at least 72 hours after last being seen. The next day, Lyudmila posted photographs of her husband around the village, and enlisted more local help to search the surrounding area. Four days later, a local who saw one of Lyudmila's posters remembered that he had seen an abandoned Dnepr bike in a remote wooded area by a garbage dump. He took Yatzenko's relatives to the scene, where they discovered his mutilated and decomposing body.

The fact that Yatzenko's murder was captured on video was unknown to the public until a court session on October 29, 2008. The unedited video of the murder was shown as part of a large presentation by the prosecution, causing shock in the audience. The court agreed with the prosecution that the video was genuine, that it showed Igor Suprunyuck attacking the victim, and that Viktor Sayenko was the man behind the camera.

The video showing the murder of Sergei Yatzenko was leaked to a shock site based in the United States and dated December 4, 2008. Ekaterina Levchenko, adviser to Ukraine's Minister of the Interior, was critical of the leak, but admitted that control of videos on the Internet was "virtually impossible". Caitlin Moran of The Times watched part of the video and recalled her reaction in her column in January 2009. Parts of the video have become a viral video known as 3Guys1Hammer, a pun on another famous shock video, 2 Girls 1 Cup. Some YouTube users have posted videos recording their reactions while watching the murder video.


Sentencing
Suprunyuck photographed with a hammer; the court described the motive of the killers as "morbid self-affirmation".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... hammer.jpg


On February 11, 2009, the court in Dnepropetrovsk found Igor Suprunyuck and Viktor Sayenko guilty of premeditated murder and sentenced both to life imprisonment. Suprunyuck was found guilty of 21 murders, while Sayenko was found guilty of 18 murders." They also received fifteen years sentences after being found guilty on the robbery charges. Alexander Hanzha, who was not involved in the killings, was found guilty of robbery and sentenced to nine years in prison. All three were also found guilty on the animal cruelty charges. Hanzha said of Suprunyuck and Sayenko: "If I had known the atrocities that they were capable of committing, I would have not gone near them at gunpoint." The judge stated in the verdict that the motive for the crimes had been a desire for "morbid self-affirmation". Referring to the accused, the court noted "the poverty of their emotional world, and their absence of interest in people and moral standards."

The court's verdict was several hundred pages long and was read out over a period of two days. The lawyers for Suprunyuck and Sayenko announced their intention to appeal, saying that the authenticity of the photographic and video evidence had not been established beyond reasonable doubt. The claim was dismissed by Edmund Saakian, a lawyer for one of the victims' families, who commented: "In theory a photo can be faked, but to fake a forty minute video would require a studio and a whole year." Larissa Dovgal, a representative of the victims' families, claimed that other perpetrators involved in the crimes could still be at large.

The parents of Igor Suprunyuck and Viktor Sayenko repeated their belief in the innocence of their sons. Vladimir Suprunyuck claimed that Igor had been tortured in order to extract his confession, with the police covering his head and forcing him to inhale cigarette smoke. Speaking at a televised press conference, Vladimir Suprunyuck cited irregularities during the investigation, and said that the case against his son was false. Igor Sayenko claimed that his son had been made a scapegoat, and that the crimes had been committed by the relatives of senior officials. The parents plan to appeal to the Supreme Court of Ukraine and the European Court of Human Rights. The parents of Suprunyuck and Sayenko also argued that the sentence on Alexander Hanzha had been too lenient. An opinion poll conducted in Dnepropetrovsk found that 50.3% of people believed that the sentence was fair, and 48.6% believed that the sentence should have been more severe.


Appeal

On August 18, 2009, the Supreme Court of Ukraine referred the case back to the Dnepropetrovsk regional court of appeal. The move was welcomed by Igor Sayenko, who stated that it was a step towards clearing his son's name. Speaking at a press conference, Igor Sayenko and Vladimir Suprunyuck repeated their belief that the case was based on fabricated evidence. A spokesperson for the prosecutor's office said that the decision to refer the case back to the appeal court was procedural, and that they were confident that the verdict would be upheld. The appeal was scheduled for October 5, 2009. In an interview with the newspaper Novi Most, the mothers of Suprunyuck and Sayenko said that their children were being treated well in prison. It was also reported that Igor Sayenko was considering setting up a website about the case.

On November 24, 2009, the Supreme Court of Ukraine upheld the life sentences passed on Igor Suprunyuck and Viktor Sayenko in February 2009. Alexander Hanzha did not appeal against his nine year sentence.

ende

Eh sada .. što mene i prijateljicu (isto član ovog foruma) bode u oči je

-Born same date as Hitler
-That they re insane!
-Animal killing > People killing
-"The weak must die. The strongest will conquer."
-That their parents are rich as fuck? and good dudes with other famous and rich people?
-That someones trying to get them out from prison?


Kombinirano sa, nekim textom (nemogu nac ga) što smo čitali da masoni djecu svoju ovako od malena programiraju da budu insane ubice, zatvaranje po grobnicama, ubijanje zivotinja like cats, dogs itd.. pa onda kako rastu da su jos vise sposobnije ubice, just like these guys

Da nadodam nešto; pošto se mogu pohvaliti da mi je mama fanatik teži razgovarala sam s njom o ovom slučaju a ona je rekla da je posve jednostavno - jer se grijesi počinjeni u prošlosti prenose na djecu... Koja eventualno budu opsjednuta ili ugrožena na neki drugi način.
Pošto znam mnogo takvih ''biblijskih'' primjera istoga (biblijski : priča ide ukratko - roditelji se odreknu grijeha i djeca im napokon ozdraviše.) mogu reći da je i ovo jedan tipičan.

Iako me sve ovo najprije navodi na ovakva ekstremna razmišljanja moram priznati da me nešto isto tako navodi i na ovozemaljske moguće uzroke ovoga.
A kao što moj prijatelj kaže ovo o masonima istina i ja sam to vidjela, strava.
Naglasila bih samo onaj dio u kojem jedna od svijedokinja kaže da je vidjela Vladimira Suprunyucka, Igor Suprunyuck tu večer kad su ubili njenu sestru s njima...
I činjenicu da ga on brani i da je odvjetnik što nam govori da je čovijek vjerojatno jako utjecajan.

Tipično.

Kakve bi ovo trebalo imate veze sa masonima??

Pročitaj malo o masonima i o tome što oni rade svojoj djeci to jest - kako ih 'treniraju'

Iako post nigdje ne kaže da uopće ima veze sa masonima, to je samo jedna od teorija, tj razloga zašto bi dva mladića koji su jedva punoljetni radili takve... užase.
Slobodno iznesi svoju ako te asociralo na nešto, meni je ovo prebolesno da bi bilo tako jednostavno.

ja bi te isto zamolio da mi kažeš gdje se to o masonima može pročitati.

ja se više nesićan na kojoj sam to stranici vidila
moli google i uslišat će te
pogledaj i na ivantic.net
a imaš i na početnoj stranici puno informacija o tome kao što se cjeli ovaj forum manje više vrti oko njih i zavjera
samo pročitaj što više da bi mogao prosuditi što ti zvuči istina a što pusto nagađanje i bajke

božja ruko. pročitao sam ja relativno dosta o masonima a i neke "njihove knjige" i mogu ti reć da olako daješ izjave.
nigdje se ne spominju ali ti to vidiš i povezuješ. ok. ali to sa odgojem djece nema baš nikakve veze s masonima.

hahaha kao što rekoh prije to je jedna od mojih teorija po onom što sam ja pročitala
nisam nametnula nikom svoje mišljenje nit ga prikazala kao činjenicu
slobodno iznesi svoje mišljenje o temi

mišljenje je prekompleksno za tako olako iznošenje.
ti si donjela nekakve zaključke, a na osnovu čega. tako se ne radi.
još kažeš da je to jedna od tvojih teorija.

ubr(usput budi rečeno) ako te zanimaju masoni počni od "masonske legende" (solomonov hram....).

evo pantelija pročitao sam to sa linka (ponovo, jer već sam bio i prije).
dakle ja nisam pitao gdje se može naći štivo o masonima već gdje se može naći bilo kakva potvrda za teorije o kojima piše božja ruka.
u tom tekstu niti približno.
ja se nisam obraćao njoj osobno već tom načinu interpretacije. koji bez ikakve analize kaže:
imamo serijskog ubojicu(e), imamo neviđenu brutalnost,imamo čudno djetinjstvo. = tako masoni odgajaju djecu.
to je okvir za mnoge zablude i predrasude.

ja tebe upućujem na tehutijev topic gdje ima 50-tak knjiga u kojima se spominju masoni.
pa kada to počitaš onda ću ti dati par linkova za dodatno čitanje.
šalim se naravno.

Ne odgajaju masoni svoju decu tako. Njih dobro programiraju da budu fini i da nastave posao održanja vlasti.
Ako neko zabrlja ili ga gurnu u stranu sa dovoljno love da se drogira i kurva do kraja života, ili ga ubiju kao jednog Rokfelera u Australiji nedavno jer je preterao u svojim nastranostima. (Naravno, zvanično je objavljeno da nije pravi "Rokfeler" - i nije više, odrekli ga se i iseckali na komade za primer ostaloj neposlušnoj deci.)

Ovakve ubice o kojime se gore govori su ili programirane od detinjstva za to ili su slućajevi odbegli od kontrole pa su sami nešto izveli na svoju ruku jer su se navadili.

Dobar primer gubitka njihove kontrole nad pojedincima je slućaj pedofila u Danskoj koji je nedavno prikazan na kanalu ID (Investigation Discovery). Kada su uhvatili jednoga koji je sa kamionetom otimao decu sa ulilce u sred bela dana, on im je 'ladno rekao: "A, to dete tražite. Daću vam još jedno". I pokazao im gde drži dve zarobljene devojčice koje je silovao nedeljama. Zatim je ispričao da radi za najmoćnije ljude u državi koji sačinjavaju lanac pedofila. Nađen je još jedan svedok, bivša žrtva tih pedofila koja je nezavisno potvrdila sve to i dodala još mnoge detalje.

Treba li da ti kažem da su svi ti pedofili sa vrha vlasti bili masoni, kao i sudija koji je suspendovao celu istragu, a na kraju osudili samo tog jednoga koga su uhvatili i za samo jedan slučaj? I da, ubijeno je ili nestalo oko 20 svedoka sa tog slučaja. Jedan se bacio pod voz dan pre nego što je trebao da svedoči.

Poenta ovog slučaja jeste da je taj koji je radio za njih sigurno otimao stotine dece, da se navadio i bio siguran u moć onih za koje radi pa je hteo i sam malo da se omrsi, oteo je nekoliko dece za sebe. Dvoje je umrlo a dvoje oslobođeno. I nikom ništa, slučaj rešen.
Tako to rade masoni.
A ne onako kako to Tehuti predstavlja.

Ma meni se samo čini da ti nisi dobro pročitao što sam ja sve napisala o ovoj temi
Neću se prepirat s tobom oko toga kako sam ja došla do tih zaključaka jer sam to već navela u prijašnjim postovima.
Zadnji put kažem da su moje teze osnovane na onoliko informacija koliko sam god mogla nać o toj temi i koje sam JA prosudila jesu li točne ili ne i koje isto toliko mogu biti i netočne i pune predrasude jer su subjektivne u istoj mjeri kao i tih 50-ak knjiga koje navodiš i svi mogući članci i postovi na internetu, ako imaš svoje argumente koji tvore 100% stvarne činjenice slobodno iznesi i onda mi možeš reći da imam neke predrasude o tim jaaadnim ljudima...isto tako možeš napasti i samog autora članka da je bio bezobrazan i napisao to tako okrutno i naturalistički o njima.

Dakle ja sam iznijela svoje teze (od kojih si se ti uhvatio samo za jednu) da bi drugi mogli reći svoje mišljenje o temi a ne o mom mišljenju

@pantelija
uz naravno gnušanje o tim aktivnostima.
ali ipak je pitanje da li su bili masoni, bez obzira na medije. vlastodršci sigurno jesu.
mason je sasvim pouzdano bio i goethe. njegov faust je veličanstvena knjiga. puno više traži za čitanje nego icke.
prema mužićevoj knjizi masoni su u dalmaciji su imali procvat u vrijeme napoleona. i to je potencirao napoleon jer mu je trebala obavještajna služba. kao i na cijelom balkanu, po potrebi i dirigirano su nastajala ta društva. da li su oni bili po definiciji i pedofili.
ja se suzdržavam od osuda i suđenja, promatram stvari kao svjedok bez brzih zaključaka.

@božja ruka
možda ti vidiš argumente ali ja vidim nešto drugo. vidim kako olako daješ izjave.
to ne znači da ja dobro vidim, samo gledam sa svih strana.

Zašto se onda uključuješ u temu ako sve promatraš?
Jao... o ne.. jadni ljudi pa ocrnišmo ih!

draga ljeva ruko,
nemoj se ljutit na mene.
svjedok ne znači bit mrtav, iako se ja nadam da jesam.
tvoja reakcija na temu je sasvim ljudska, ali ja ti želim reći slijedeće:
ne postoji organizacija, sekta, društvo, udruga, sportski klub pa i internet forum, u kojem nije u većoj ili manjoj mjeri sadržano i zlo. bavit se sa time na takav način kako si ti postavila post je isto što i progoniti vještice.
umjesto toga upitaj se slijedeće: pogledaj ljude koje srećeš svakodnevno i upitaj se tko bi od njih pristao na sljedeću pogodbu. daj mali prst a potres na haitiju se neće dogoditi, tj. neće bit mrtvo X00.000 ljudi. ja ti garantiram da dobar dio ljudi neće pristati ili će bar pokušat izbjeć da se nađu u takvoj situaciji tj da baš oni daju prst, što je isto.
to je naravno hipotetički ali nije mi to teško zamislit.
"kao svjedok" mislim bez predrasuda.

Ma ne ljutim se ja na tebe, nego mi je krivo što ne sudjeluješ u temi, odmah kažeš da je sve to apsurdno uopće analizirati... Ja sam masone i slične samo spomenula - a odmah poslije toga sam spomenula i spiritualnu temu vezanu za grijehe i nasljeđivanje...
I ja sam osoba bez apsolutno ikakvih predrasuda ovo što ti sam ja navela kao i što je pantelija dolazi iz činjenica.
ja u svojoj blizini nemam nikoga s kim bi pričala o takvim temama jer niko nije dovoljno zainteresiran, a ovi što jesu opet neznaju dovoljno i imam osjećaj koda pričam sa zidom...
Poput ostalih na ovom forumu ja oću saznati više i proširiti svoje znanje, zato iznosim i tražim različita mišljenja o sličnim temama.

Odrastao sam čitajući Getea, naročito me namučio njegov Faust drugi deo jer tada još nisam poznavao alhemičarsku simboliku. A masonu Napoleonu svaka čast što je uveo građanski brak putem slobodne trgovine i metarskog sistema. Ko zna šta bi sve uveo da ga nisu zaustavili. On je dobar primer ekscentrika koji se malo otrgao njihovoj kontroli. A malo je zezao i Papu, jednog od glavinih njihovih operativaca pa su ga zato kobajagi zatvorili iako je mogao da izlazi kad je hteo.

Ako te muči činjenica zašto su masoni ujedno i ljudožderi i korisni ljudi reći ću ti ukratko da ne brineš: oni su stvorili celu savrremenu civilizaciju, kao i onu stariju (uz pomoć onih gore) - pa valjda misle da mogu malo i da naplate u krvi.
Bolje se pitaj kakva bi civilizacija bila da su je ljudi sami stvarali na ljubavi i razumevanju, a ne na moru krvi.
A možda ljudi nisu ni sposobni da je sami stvaraju jer su u svojoj duši božanski i bezvremeni, sami Stvaraoci u svemu što je već stovreno, ali nesvesni, pa ih neljudi koriste jer nemaju moć stvaranja da ljudi rade za njih kao konji, a konjsko meso je vrlo ukusno i hranljivo.
Dakle, oni stvaraju civilizaciju kakva njima odgovara, punu sukoba i ratova, sa minimumom tehnologije kakvu danas imamo, da bi mogli da se najedu.
Kakvo bi okruženje stvorili sami ljudi mogao bi da doživiš neki nagoveštaj da si se ikada našao u bliizini nekog od pravih svetaca koji su hodali ovom zemljom.